(06-07-2017, 09:32 PM)Alan Beavers Wrote: Thanks Peter, thank you for all your work over the weekend and else.
The move has to be scheduled otherwise the signaller has to talk to the driver, but where would this scheduling be - I know that TRUST gives platform nos. but what says whether it is permissive, is it the 'train running information' given to the signaller?
What else can be done on a shunt permissive move apart from an engine onto its train - empty coaching stock, what about ECS onto a loaded passenger already in the platform, can that be done?
Regards, Alan
There are various sources of info to guide the signaller including the specific Signalbox Instructions and Station Working books, but these are generic rather than looking at specific timetabled movements.
The Sectional Appendix would show which lines are defined as Permissive Passenger but not give any idea re which services can use it when.
I am not aware if nowadays such information is shown in the WTT Working Timetable. It would be the logical place. However I was always surprised how little detail was provided to signallers when a timetable changed. Seemed to be that they actually had to work out platform allocations for themselves in the few weeks prior the introduction of a new TT and create their own "platform simplifies" to work out which train should use which platform to minimise conflicts regarding arrival and departure times. Thus it was often determined at a surprisingly local level, very close to implementation. Presumably someone had worked out far earlier that things could work and perhaps the exercise was only supposed to be familiarising the local staff and transferring information into a form that was easier to use "real time" but it definitely was amended "them in ivory towers don't know really how to run a railway" taking into account local factors and knowledge based on years of experience about what could actually be expected rather than the theoretical scenario of the planner.
I am out of touch with such things now, but I'd like to think that in the last 25years there is far more realism built into the timetable from the outset; far more data is available centrally via recording and logging, event replay etc. This is a long-winded way of saying: I don't really know but I think it is the WTT and where that doesn't specify then it is likely to be the relevant local operating manager who effectively signs off any locally developed station working information and also is responsible for issuing any specific local notices regarding regulation priorities or additional risk mitigation measures (often as a result of investigations into incidents) which the signallers are to implement.
As you say the intended platform allocations (however they are actually set) are included into a database accessible to the signallers (and indeed as a member of the public then you can get access to elements of this from websites selling rail tickets or Open Train Times etc. Not sure if it is anywhere explicitly noted that it is a permissive move, but obviously this can be inferred if the move is timetabled when the platform is already occupied (well on the assumption there is no mid-platform signal of course).
I seem to remember that when considering the arrangements for Permissive Passenger and Permissive Freight operation (whose rules differ), that ECS is a bit of a "joker" in that it can be treated as either Passenger or Freight as convenient so therefore can mix with both, depending on the category of the other train. Yes a shunt move can be used for joining an ECS multiple unit train onto another multiple unit train whether or not it has passengers in it, just as a loco can be signalled onto passsenger coaches.
PJW